Listen to BA Bake Club’s Podcast on Whole Lemon Bars

This month Bake Club is embracing every part of the lemon as cohost Jesse Szewczyk brings us his recipe for Whole Lemon Bars.

“These lemon bars did not start as lemon bars,” Jesse confesses to cohost Shilpa Uskokovic. “They went through a journey. First, they were marshmallows…and then they were marshmallow cookies, and then, something happened, they turned into lemon bars.”

On the latest episode of BA Bake Club, Jesse and Shilpa take your questions and bestow the honor of Baker of the Month on one talented Bake Clubber.

Make sure you join our BA Bake Club Substack for access to a bonus recipe for the Marshmallow That Became a Lemon Bar.

Later in the episode, Bake Clubs unite as visionary pastry chef and founder of Milk Bar (as well as her own bake club) Christina Tosi joins Jesse and Shilpa to talk about her love of baking and where she finds inspiration.

“We need more forces of good and positivity and innovation and creativity. That’s why I started Bake Club, and I love that you all have BA Bake Club in the same way.” Tosi says.

You can find Christina Tosi online at milkbarstore.com, @christinatosi on socials or on her website bakeclub.com.

We’d love to hear from you! Send your questions to BA Bake Club! Find us on Substack or send us a voice memo to [email protected].

Shilpa Uskokovic: I'm Shilpa Uskokovic.

Jesse Szewczyk: And I'm Jesse Szewczyk.

SU: We're both Senior Test Kitchen Editors at Bon Appetit.

JS: And this is BA Bake Club.

SU: Bake Club is Bon Appetit's community of confident and curious bakers.

JS: We're creating the nerdiest and most wholesome corner of the baking internet.

SU: Every month we publish a recipe on bonappetit.com that introduces a baking concept we think you should know.

JS: Then you'll go bake, send us any questions you might have or pictures of your finished creations.

SU: And we'll get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe.

JS: So the June Bake Club recipe for tiny tomato galettes is live now on bonappetit.com and we'll tell you all about the recipe at the end of this episode.

SU: But for today, we are busting out our blenders because we're going to be talking all about Jesse's recipe for whole lemon bars. Okay, Jesse, tell us about your lemon bars.

JS: Okay. These lemon bars did not start as lemon bars. They went through a journey. First they were marshmallows. Don't ask how we got there. Okay. And then they were like marshmallow cookies and then something happened. They turned into lemon bars with a marmalade, lemon bars with candy lemon.

SU: I'm really not seeing this pipeline, but I'm glad you had a vision.

JS: Shilpa missed this pipeline.

SU: I did.

JS: And then you know what? I ended up on a whole lemon bars, and they're really cool because you blend up a lemon, you get the bitterness, all of that kind of robust bottom note flavors that lemon can provide with all the acidity too. So it's really cool.

SU: Wonderful. Before we get too far, we're going to need our cheerful how-to music. Okay, there it is. Jesse, I see your excitement. I am so sad that I missed out on the development process, but can you take us through the basic steps of this lemon bar very quickly?

JS: Yeah. So you start with the shortbread, of course. You whisk together just by hand, room temperature butter, some powdered sugar, some granulated sugar, some vanilla extracts, some salt, whist it up until kind of fluffy smooth, mix in some flour and a touch of baking powder too. Spread that in a pan and bake it. And so while that's baking, you're going to make your curd. So you're going to cut up two whole lemons just into chunks, however you want. And take the seeds out, then put all of it into a blender with some additional lemon juice, puree that until it's very pulpy. Not smooth, but it's just completely broken down. Yeah, almost like a slushy, but not frozen.

SU: Yeah, yeah.

JS: And then you're going to strain that. So get all the pulpy bits out. It's fine if some go through, but you want to take the bulk of that body out. And then you're going to mix in some egg yolks, a can of sweet condense milk and some salt. As soon as that crust is done baking, you're going to pour on that lemon mixture and then you're going to bake it just until it jiggles. Just until it's set. Take it out, cool it, refrigerate for four hours and that's your lemon bars. Dust with powdered sugar if you want and that's it.

SU: Wow. And then you can cut it with just one knife this time.

JS: Just one knife this time.

SU: We'll get into that in a little bit, but let's start with the shortbread.

JS: Yeah.

SU: So, in the recipe, you tell readers not to undermix the shortbread.

JS: Yes.

SU: Can you tell me why? And then also I want to kind of understand what happens if you undermix and then what happens if you overmix your shortbread?

JS: Sure. This isn't going to make or break your recipe, but essentially this mixture is very tender. It's a very tender shortbread and it uses powdered sugar, which is an ingredient that gives shortbread a very tender, like melting quality. And what that means is that you do want some structure in the shortbread. It is the foundation of your bar. So mixing is a motion that's going to create gluten. So you actually want that here. You don't want to be too gentle. Give it a really decent mix and that's fine. Under mixing, you're going to have a more tender, crumbly shortbread when you cut into it, which again is fine. It's fine both ways, but you really don't need to be too dainty here.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: How much liquid is there in the shortbread recipe?

JS: No liquid.

SU: Okay.

JS: No liquid. Just-

SU: Just the butter.

JS: Just the butter. Yeah.

SU: Yeah. Okay. That makes sense.

JS: Yeah. I find that if you add water or something, it can veer into the tough category. You know what I mean?

SU: Speak to me about baking the shortbread. I know in the test kitchen when you developed it the first time, and then after the first time you baked it, you then made an edit.

JS: Sure, sure, sure.

SU: And you baked it for significantly longer.

JS: Yes. I think this is actually one of the main things, if not the main issue people run into with lemon bars. You'll see a picture of a cut into slice and it's really undercooked, that shortbread.

SU: Yeah, it's pasty.

JS: It's pasty. What I've found is that since you're adding the curd on top, which is quite wet, you kind of need to bake it a click past what you're used to. It is going to soften a bit when you introduce that liquid. So you really need to push it to what the French call ben qui, which is like, I don't even know, like on the edge of burnt essentially.

SU: Yeah. Yeah.

JS: Yes. So you really want it to be a deep summer tan.

SU: Yes. It's like baking a fruit pie.

JS: Yes, exactly. Some things you really need to take it far.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah. And your patience will be rewarded with a crust that crumbles versus squidges when you cut down. Yeah.

SU: And it's also pleasant to eat. There's a contrast between the filling-

JS: Yes.

SU: In yours and that I think was the most successful part of your recipe. Okay. Moving on to the filling. How did you land on the whole lemon concept?

JS: Okay. I'm like, this is a long story, but okay. I think I said whole lemon bars. Everyone's like, "Yes." And I was like, "Hmm, what does that mean?" And so the first time I blended up the whole lemons, kind of like this recipe and then built the curd on top of that blended lemon mixture and I baked it. And the thing was that the curd was baked nicely. It wasn't over baked. However, the tiny little particulates of the lemon made it read like it curdled almost.

SU: Oh, yeah.

JS: Yes. And it was sad.

SU: Yeah.

JS: So then-

SU: It interfered with the silkiness of the filling.

JS: Yes. Yeah. So even if you'd perfectly cooked your custard, it would never actually be silky. So then I was like, okay, what if I cook slices or chopped up lemon for a jelly topping on top of the curd? Use the juice in the curd and then make a marmalade. So I started with whole slices that I candied, put them on top. Cool, pretty, but then you go to slice the bar and that lemon pushes down into the... Do you know what I'm saying?

SU: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it drags the filling down.

JS: Yes, and it smushes it.

SU: Ugh.

JS: Sad. So then I thought, okay, what am I trying to do here with whole lemon bars? So what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to extract the oil from the skin, the bitterness, the pithiness, all those things that make lemon lemon. So I'm like, I don't need the matter, like the physical matter. So what if I just blend it and extract all of those things and then strain it out? And I did that and it looked like a normal lemon bar, but then when we ate it, you got that kind of really punch of lemon. And I'm like, "This is it."

SU: Yeah. And it wasn't just sweet. It was very multidimensional, that flavor of lemon.

JS: Yes.

SU: It wasn't just sweet and tart.

JS: Yes. You can use extracts to get intensity and it's like that but different.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yes.

SU: It has that floral quality that lemon peel has, that very fresh quality that's very hard to replicate in any way.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Not with juice. Not with extract.

JS: It's hard because you can't do oil, extract.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: It was a very successful highlight of lemon as a flavor.

JS: Thanks.

SU: I think it really introduced people to a different side, I think, of lemon.

JS: Yeah. It's like when I put up the first iteration of the blended and strain, we're just like, "This is so easy."

SU: Yeah.

JS: I was over complicating it.

SU: Yeah, but that's-

JS: As we do.

SU: As we do.

JS: As we do. Yeah.

SU: Okay. But when you're blending the whole lemon, you don't use the seeds though?

JS: Yes, I pick those up.

SU: And why?

JS: I think the seeds would just be pushing it too far in the bitter realm, possibly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know what? If one or two make it in-

SU: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JS: I don't know, don't tell anyone.

SU: Okay. Did you try it with something else besides a blender, like a food processor or I was going to say by hand, but no.

JS: You know what? Usually, I am one to try to make things by hand. I didn't.

SU: Yeah. Yeah.

JS: Yeah. If you don't have a blender, I'm sorry.

SU: Yeah. You kind of need that mechanical action of like, shuck, shuck, shuck, shuck.

JS: Yeah, I think you could get away with a food processor. I think you just have to start and stop and scrape down a lot because it flicks to the sides.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah. But there's a decent amount of juice. Yeah, you can use a food processor. I think it's fine.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: What consistency is that mixture, the filling before you bake it and after, but after you've strained out those whole lemons, what consistency is it?

JS: Yeah. So after you strain out the whole lemons, you essentially just have juice. It's like turbo-powered lemon juice. And then to that, you're going to bolster it with the egg yolks-

SU: Oh, okay.

JS: The sweetened condensed milk, the salt.

SU: And the rest of the ingredients. Okay. So you're just building it like a basic lemon bar, but the lemon juice is your whole lemon juice.

JS: Yes. And I use sweetened condensed milk. It kind of gives it an incredibly creamy, almost like orange creamsicle texture, like a key lime pie texture.

SU: Yeah.

JS: And I just was trying to think of something that could really foil the intensity of the lemon, like meet it where it was. And I'm like, oh, creamy, sweet condensed milk really sounds nice to me.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: And because you use the condensed milk, you don't need extra sugar.

JS: Nope.

SU: I love that. Okay. I want to throw it back a little bit to your origin story of the lemon bars.

JS: The complicated origin story.

SU: The fact that it started out as a marshmallow.

JS: It did, yes.

SU: That's actually insane to me.

JS: I don't know how we got here.

SU: I feel like, yes.

JS: You missed a lot.

SU: I really missed a lot. Okay. So this started out as a marshmallow.

JS: Yes.

SU: And do you want to gift this marshmallow recipe to anyone?

JS: You know what? Sure. Yes. I think, let's put it on the Substack.

SU: Yes.

JS: It's just for the club. It's a good marshmallow. So you know what? Yes. Marshmallow recipe, check the Bake Club. I'm going to put it up this month.

JS: The marshmallow that never was. Yeah.

SU: The marshmallow that became a lemon bar on the Substack.

JS: That's what I'll title it. Yeah.

SU: Okay. Moving along. Let's talk about the assembly.

JS: Yes.

SU: I found it really interesting and intriguing, the one point that you made, that you add the custard to the shortbread while the shortbread is still warm.

JS: Yes.

SU: Why?

JS: You know what? I want to shout out ex-BA colleague, Kendra Vaculin. There's a video of her when she developed her perfect lemon bar and she went through a lot.

SU: A lot.

JS: And you know what? I didn't want to go through as much pain as she did. So one of her main takeaways is that if you let your shortbread completely cool and then you pour your custard on, it risks inverted, which means that that cooled shortbread will float, the custard will sink and you will end up with these weird upside down lemon bars. And I went down this hole on the internet and it is a very common problem.

SU: Wow. Yeah.

JS: So you need the residual heat from baking on the sides and on that custard to and cook the edges and glue them into place so it doesn't float to the top. Isn't that crazy?

SU: Wow.

JS: Yes. So shout out Kendra. You saved me a lot of pain this time.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: And how do you know when to take this lemon bar out? Because you don't really get color. It's not like a cake where it's like, oh, look for it to be golden brown. So then what's the visual cue then?

JS: Yeah, it doesn't change color at all. You want to tap the pan, like move it around a bit and it should jiggle like jello. It shouldn't slosh like a wave, but it should jiggle. And what I will say to people is I've gone under and over. And I think in this particular custard, I think because of the sweetened condensed milk, it is quite forgiving. So it's like not the most stressful part, but yeah, you're going for kind of like a set jello jiggle.

SU: Like a cheesecake, like when you set the cheesecake.

JS: Same exact thing. Exactly.

SU: I really love the texture of these lemon bars, because-

JS: The creamy, yeah.

SU: Yeah. It's very creamy, but it's also light at the same time. Sometimes lemon bars can have a heavy sort of tackiness to them.

JS: Yeah, I don't know how to describe. It's like, yeah.

SU: It has a sort of light souffled kind of, like baked eggs.

JS: Yeah, it's like dairy forward.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yes.

SU: I really found it a very, very pleasant lemon bar.

JS: Thank you.

SU: Okay. Speaking of how to finish the lemon bars, the recipe, you run the recipe online just dusting powdered sugar on top. By the way, did you dust the powdered sugar before or after cutting or both?

JS: Before.

SU: Okay, before.

JS: And a little after.

SU: Ah. Yeah, there we go.

JS: Yes. Okay. Some gotcha journalism again.

SU: No, no, but I think that's a great thing.

JS: Well, I want it to look nice.

SU: Yes. So if you want it to look nice, you got to powder sugar it twice, once before cutting.

JS: There you go.

SU: And then after you cut it and you powder it.

JS: You can also blot the top if it looks wet, because depending on how you wrapped it or whatever, you can get some condensation on the skin. If it's looking wet, just very gently blot it with a paper towel before you dust it. Yeah.

SU: Blot the top of the lemon bars.

JS: Yeah, like you're blotting a pizza slice.

SU: Oh yeah, yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Do you remember a lot of cake bakers would use Viva brand paper towels?

JS: Yeah. Oh, do I remember?

SU: Because they didn't have any-

JS: I was a stylist, Shilpa. Those Viva paper towels are coveted.

SU: Because they didn't have any pattern-

JS: Yes.

SU: On them. So you could-

JS: Those are the good ones.

SU: Smooth things out. Okay. So Viva brand paper towels or not, you can use-

JS: And sponsor us.

SU: No, truly sponsor us. Then you did a little video-

JS: Yes.

SU: Where you brulee the top-

JS: Yes.

SU: Of the lemon bars.

JS: Yes.

SU: I know this video very well.

JS: Shilpa filmed half-

SU: And Nina.

JS: If not more of it. Yeah.

SU: And Nina.

JS: And shout out to Nina.

SU: There was a really fun video where you sprinkled sugar on the top of the finished lemon bar and then you-

JS: Yes.

SU: Brulee with a torch.

JS: Yeah. I mean, I had an extra slab of them because I was filming a video and I was like, "What can we do with this?" So I was trying to think of all the fun ways we could finish a lemon bar. And I mean, honestly, you could do whatever you want. You could brulee them, you could put a meringue on them. You know what? You can put a thin layer of chocolate ganache. That's crazy.

SU: That's wonderful. Like a milk chocolate ganache.

JS: Yes. But you know, that's nice.

SU: That's really lovely.

JS: That's nice stuff. Yeah.

SU: Yeah. I think that would be so nice. You could put some of your to be published marshmallow on top.

JS: Sure. Sure. Why not? Some crushed up Lemonheads. I mean, some saltines.

SU: Oh.

JS: Ooh, like a salty crumble.

SU: Oh, like [inaudible 00:15:03] beach pie.

JS: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

SU: That'd be very good. Okay. And how do you cut these bars? I know you got, in the video, I know you got very perfect, beautiful shapes and neat corners. What's your secret?

JS: You know what? It's less complicated. For those who listen to millionaire shortbread, I remember I used two knives. This one's not so bad, because with the millionaire shortbread, you have caramel and you have shortbread, which are like these two very different textures. So it's almost like you need two knives to get through them differently. But with this, a sharp, thin knife, one cut straight down is all you need. Don't angle it. Don't rock back and forth, just one.

SU: And are you going straight down-

JS: Yes.

SU: And then you're lifting straight back up or are you sliding out the knife?

JS: You slide it out.

SU: Okay.

JS: Okay. So imagine... Okay. I cut right down the middle. Now I put my two fingers.

SU: Jesse, we got to stop.

JS: No, come on. To hold the two pieces in place and then I pull it back so the fingers are supporting the two planks.

SU: Do you wipe the knife between cuts or no?

JS: Of course. Of course you wipe-

SU: Okay.

JS: The knife between cuts.

SU: That's all we need to know. Everybody use a sharp knife straight up and down.

JS: Hold them in place with two fingers. Shilpa is the one making this weird, okay?

SU: I don't know. It sounds so weird. Okay. And then you wipe the knife between cuts. Wonderful. We're going to take a quick break.

JS: And when we get back, we'll answer some listener questions all about the whole lemon bars. Welcome back to BA Bake Club.

SU: Okay, Jesse, are you ready for some listener questions?

JS: I'm ready.

SU: Wonderful. First up, we have a question about the taste of the lemon bars from Ayari. "Lemon bars," dot, dot, dot. "Love the texture, the crust, but the bitterness of the lemons came out a little bit too strong for me. Jesse, any ideas why this could be?"

JS: To be honest, the only thing I could really think of are these incredibly pithy lemons you're using. Are these like backyard lemons? You know what I mean?

SU: Yeah. Yeah, like homegrown-

JS: Or farmer's market lemons. Yes.

SU: Yeah.

JS: I could see that being an issue.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: And also listen, human beings are not programmed to love bitter flavors.

JS: Yeah, it's like a-

SU: It's poison.

JS: Yes.

SU: We're preconditioned not to love it. So we all have different tolerances for the flavor of bitter, and it might well just be that.

JS: It could be. Yeah.

SU: Right. Moving along. We have a question from Meg about blending the lemons. Okay. Meg says, "These taste amazing." That's exactly how-

JS: Thanks, Meg.

SU: Meg says it. "So often lemon bars taste eggy or not tart enough for me and these are perfection. I made two mistakes. One, my Vitamix blended the whole lemons into liquid and when I poured through the sieve, it just all went through the mesh. I didn't buy enough lemons for one cup of juice, so I had to add the juice of two limes. It was fine. I love the flavor. Question: Is there a reason to not blitz the whole lemons into liquid? It would save me the sieve step next time, but I'm happy to do it the right way and just turn down the power on the blender if it's better." Oh, so my takeaway, Meg is asking why do you need to strain it if your-

JS: Yes.

SU: Blender can make it into a fine enough puree? Ah, okay.

JS: Yes. Yes. This was going back to testing. I was also using a Vitamix, which is going to be the best blender you can have and not everyone has those.

SU: Vitamix, do sponsor us.

JS: And Vitamix, do sponsor us. Yes. And Viva paper towels. Even when I pushed it really far, you still get a bit of that texture in a way that just reads like you messed up your custard.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: And I think also, maybe leaving some of that in might enhance the bitterness in a way that we may not want.

JS: Yeah. It could push the bitterness too far.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah. Then it's not a statement bar, it's a bad bar.

SU: Ooh.

JS: Oh.

SU: Damn. Words were said. Okay. So Meg, we would prefer that the mixture be strained even if it's with our beloved Vitamix, which leaves no trace of lemon.

JS: But I will say, Meg, I was right there with you in the beginning.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah. So we were on the same wavelength.

SU: Okay. We have a question from Taylor that came into our email inbox. For everyone listening, you can always email us at [email protected] with any questions. And Taylor writes, "Jesse and Shilpa, thanks for another fun Bake Club recipe. It was a fun twist on a classic. I didn't realize lemon bars could be so versatile. I think they turned out just like they're supposed to. The only thing I wondered about is the pale color of the lemon curd. I assumed they'd actually turned out brighter because of the blitz lemons, but these were more pale than I expected." And Taylor has sent in a picture of their lemon bars. Jesse, you want to take a crack at describing them?

JS: They look great.

SU: They do look great. There's three lemon bars on a plate. Custard looks beautifully set. Nice shake of powdered sugar on top.

JS: That first cut, that's a good square.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Crisp lines.

SU: Really crisp.

JS: I will say yes, you are right, Taylor. Like we said, most lemon bars are kind of a different texture. This one is more of a key lime texture. So I do think the addition of the sweetened condensed milk does push this into a much paler, much creamier color than maybe most people would be expecting. Yeah. So I think you did everything right, Taylor. It's just kind of a different take. Yeah, you're good.

SU: And a question about using alternative citrus from Patrick. Patrick says, "I use the Meyer lemons off of our tree. Came out nice, could have cooked the curd another five minutes, and it's more shortbread than I prefer, but I like the taste. I'm going to try again on our kumquats already."

JS: Oh.

SU: "I basically do the same with them for my kumquat meringues."

JS: Oh, wow.

SU: Wow. A kumquat meringue pie sounds rather delicious. Jesse, do you have any words of advice for our Patrick?

JS: You know what? I don't, because I feel like you can use any citrus you want and adapt this. It's just different expressions of citrus and some might be perhaps maybe a little more...

SU: Not as effective.

JS: Aggressive? I'm trying to think, like a grapefruit. I'm like, damn, that might knock your socks off.

SU: That would be a lot. Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: I don't know about the kumquats though. I don't think kumquats have enough liquid.

JS: Well, yeah. Because you need-

SU: I think the ratio of like, they're not juicy enough.

JS: Yeah, because they're mostly skin.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Patrick, I love your idea. I love that you have all the citrus in your backyard. I don't know about the kumquats though. Meyer lemon, great.

JS: You'd have to adjust the recipe significantly.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah. I'm sure the kumquat meringue pies is a completely different ratio.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe limes, but again, lime zest is such a piercing-

SU: Yeah. It has a weird tingly quality on your tongue-

JS: Yeah, like-

SU: When you blend lemon, like limes rather.

JS: I kind of feel like lemons are the most cooperative citrus.

SU: Yeah. I wonder if it would work with a mandarin or a clementine.

JS: Oh yeah, I could see that.

SU: That could be nice.

JS: Yeah. I think the thing is, like you can play around with these things. It's risky business.

SU: Yeah, because you'd need to have the same amount or similar amount of yield. Once you blitz and strain, you need to have a similar amount of liquid so at least all the rest of the ingredients stay in balance. So I think the substitution of Meyer lemon is fantastic.

JS: Yeah. Meyer lemons are beautiful.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah. And especially I feel like in this instance, you get a lot more oil skin versus pit, so it'd be a really pretty expression of lemon. Yeah.

SU: So yes, some citrus could work. Some, maybe not.

JS: Yeah, be careful.

SU: Okay. And a question about the curd from Cindy. "They set, but they're smidge juicy."

JS: Oh yeah, I see them. I see them.

SU: "The shortbread is delicious but a bit firm. Sun gave it a thumbs up." Okay. So Cindy has some pictures attached. Oh, I see.

JS: I like the first one, Cindy. I love the term juicy. Okay.

SU: Juicy is a choice.

JS: Yeah, I feel like you're being very kind with that word and creative. You know what? They do look juicy.

SU: Well-

JS: Okay. What I will say is: the bars, yes, the shortbread is a smidge dark. I kind of do that too. However, the top of the bar, the set looks nice to me, but it does look like there's a lot of liquid on top.

SU: Yeah. It doesn't look like it's not set. It looks like there was some sort of condensation issue.

JS: I'm curious if Cindy wrapped these while they were still slightly warm and they kind of sweated and then dripped down.

SU: Yeah, because you can also see that Cindy's put powdered sugar and it's quickly dissolving.

JS: Yeah, because it just melted right away.

SU: Yeah. I'm thinking it's something, it's like condensation because the bar is so nicely set.

JS: Yeah, the bars honestly don't look bad at all.

SU: No, the cut on them is very clean.

JS: Yes. I think they look pretty good, honestly.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah. I think there's just some condensation issue going on.

SU: Cindy, write back to us and let us know if, in fact, you did wrap the bars when they were a bit warm, or maybe you wrapped them after they were sugared and then you refrigerated them.

JS: Oh, and they kind of sweated out.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SU: We're curious to know.

JS: Yeah.

SU: But otherwise, your bars do look fantastic.

JS: Your juicy bars look good.

SU: Okay. We have a question about finishing the bars from Christina on Substack. "After having my powdered sugar topping melt, I remembered an episode of She's My Cherry Pie podcast with Carla Hall where she talks about snow sugar, which is a mix of sugar, cornstarch, and coconut oil. I think it's used like powdered sugar except it doesn't melt. Does anyone have any experience with this?" I mean, shout out to Carla Hall. I love her. And that's a great suggestion, but what do you think?

JS: Yeah. I mean, non-melting powdered sugar, I know her well.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah. Yeah, no, it's a fun product. It's just like powdered sugar that has some starch, or a dextrose, or some dried fat or something. Yeah. If you say you want to dust these and then put them out for, I don't know, an event or something, then they need to sit for several hours. It could be a good choice. You can easily buy them online. They're fun. They don't taste any different. Still, if your bars are really wet on top, still give them a little blot because it's not foolproof, but it is a fun product to play with. You can dust it on cakes. It's nice.

SU: And Jesse, a last question. It's a question about egg whites from Hannah. "I love the lemon bars. Do you have any creative suggestions as to what to do with the leftover egg whites?" We have another Bake Club recipe.

JS: We have another Bake Club recipe, Shilpa's pavlova. Yeah.

SU: So a pavlova.

JS: A pavlova would be smart. Yeah.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Trying to think what else uses egg whites that you could... It's like a mousse, like a classic.

SU: Like an angel food cake.

JS: An angel food cake?

SU: Yeah.

JS: A souffle.

SU: An egg white omelet.

JS: Okay. Well, yeah. A cooked egg white. Meringue cookies.

SU: Oh, yes.

JS: Yeah. I mean, yeah, easy, simple.

SU: Okay. Hannah, make a pavlova or make meringue cookies.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Or just make plain meringues.

JS: But you could also freeze them.

SU: Yes, you could. And then do the same thing in the future.

JS: Yeah. And then six months from now, ask yourself what to do with them.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Yeah. Okay. Before we take a break, Jesse, it's time for our new tradition, the Baker of the Month Award where you've win nothing but our validation. This month's Baker of the Month goes to...

JS: Okay. Okay. This was a tough one. I'm going to give it to creativity points. Okay?

SU: Yeah.

JS: And it goes to Jason.

SU: Wow.

JS: Jason baked his... And first of all, a round, it looks like a nine-inch round. You're crazy for that. And it looked like it worked great, but then he also adorned it with these beautiful candied little mint pieces.

SU: And mint leaves. Wow.

JS: So you know what? You win creative Baker of the Month.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Got to hand it to you. You truly, you made it into a cake. It's cool.

SU: Jason, this is so cute. So artsy.

JS: Jason, you're hired.

SU: Wonderful. We had a lot of wonderful entries this month and everyone is a winner in our book.

JS: Everyone's a winner. You all got it.

SU: We are going to take another break.

JS: And when we get back, we'll introduce you to a baker you should know. Welcome back to BA Bake Club.

SU: It's one of my favorite parts of the show. It's time for us to introduce you to a baker that we think you should know.

JS: And I'm guessing that a lot of you probably do know her already. Today, we are calling up a friend of the Test Kitchen. It is the one and only Christina Tosi.

Christina Tosi: Hi, Jess. Hi, Shilp.

SU: Hi.

JS: Hello.

SU: Christina is a two-time James Beard award-winning chef and the owner of Milk Bar.

JS: Christina, she's like The Beatles. She has so many hits. She has her iconic birthday cake. She has her iconic Milk Bar Pie, Compost Cookies. And of course the super iconic, much copied Cereal Milk. Just there's so many... I'm using iconic in every sentence, but-

SU: Yes. But it is.

JS: Iconic bakes. Yes.

SU: Yeah. Christina, welcome to the BA Bake Club.

CT: Thank you so much for having me. I mean, I love hanging out with you two on any level, eating desserts, talking about desserts, talking about talking about desserts.

JS: I love that.

SU: Yeah, you're right. There are many iconic desserts that you gave the world. I remember your Cereal Milk soft serve. I remember moving to the city after graduation and tasting that soft serve for the first time and being like, "Who is this person who came up with this?"

JS: It was a cultural moment.

SU: Yeah, it really was. At a time when those things were just about starting.

CT: Aw, you all are so sweet. I mean, I think the secret to any great recipe is the fact, it's like bridging the tensions of old and new, right, of nostalgia and newness and innovation. And one of my big creative theories is that the best ideas are out there in the world. They're just waiting for us to pay attention and to pick them up and to go, right?

The idea of drinking what's left in your bowl after you eat all the cereal out of it is not a new concept, but at least not in my life, by any stretch of the imagination, but it's one of those cues that's like hiding in plain sight for you your entire life until you decide to take notice of it and do something with it. But I think that's true for truly any great dessert recipe, and that's because dessert is like an opt-in course and it's the thing that makes us happy. And it's trying to sort of like pick up the cues of what are the moments where we feel the most giddy and quiet with a smile on our face or loud and boisterous, happy or what have you and try to sort of work backwards from there.

JS: Christina, I want to ask something kind of bratty.

CT: I love a brat. Go.

JS: How does it feel that your concepts are just like part of the lexicon now, like seeing everyone make them? How does it feel?

CT: I honestly just put blinders on, Jess.

JS: Oh.

CT: On a few different levels. One, because my theory is like, well, I don't know. I didn't invent the chocolate chip cookie. I fell in love with baking because of the chocolate chip cookie, or the oatmeal cookie, or the apple pie. And someone was generous enough to have made it and be like, "Ooh, this is good. I want to give this recipe to more people so that they can make it and eat it and have it." I think that's one piece of it, right? You have to acknowledge where you are, but who came before you and then cheer on what happens next and be a part of that conversation. And I think the other part of it is like, be a person in the world, be excited, be curious, be hungry. But also when it comes time to do the work, be creative in your own bubble.

I actually think we do our most creative work when we're limited. I'm sort of like, "Go into that corner and don't come out until you figured how to look at butter, flour, sugar, salt in a way that only your brain could." And so I think that's the other bit of it. I also put blinders on in the like when I'm creating, you got 86 the white noise, 86 the fuzz, you know what I mean? Because I think we need more new and more additive than we need more of the same, if you will. And so the rest of it is just like, it's flattery if I'm paying attention, but most of the time I'm like, "It's just a recipe I thought was great that I wanted to feed people and share with people." That's why we put it in our cookbooks. I think that's an important part of being a part of the dessert conversation in the industry and to pay respects to why we are where we are and to hopefully be a part of what's to come.

JS: I love that answer.

SU: Yeah, that's actually really great. And it says a lot about why you started your own Bake Club, which is wildly popular and which honestly we took inspiration from.

CT: Aw, you guys are so sweet.

SU: BA Bake Club is very, very much inspired by you and your Bake Club and the way you communicate and connect with other people in your audience. And hearing you say this really brings everything home for me.

CT: You all are so sweet. I mean, baking is community, right? I thought I got into baking because I like sugar. I just had a handful of chocolate chips. I got a whole... If I could turn around the camera and show you all the snacks I have lined up that I'm trying to taste and eat. But as I dug into it a little bit further, I realized Bake Club was like, I'm an introvert. I'm a closeted introvert. It was my conduit. It still is my conduit to people, to friendships, to relationships and therefore community. And it wasn't until the pandemic, that I realized like, oh, this is how I show up. This is how I show up for other people. It's how I show up for myself. And I want to share that with more people because I think it is a force that is to be reckoned with.

We need more forces of good and positivity and innovation and creativity. That's why I started Bake Club and I love that you all have BA Bake Club in the same way. It's sort of like, this is the recipe I think is awesome that I'm obsessed with right now and I want to share it with you and feed it to you and make it, but also make it in your own way, do your own thing, put your own spin on it because it does make a difference in the world. These tiny, small little things do add up to goodness that makes a difference.

SU: Yeah.

CT: Yeah.

SU: That's actually very generous of you. Meanwhile, Jesse and I are like, "Please do not change our recipe."

JS: Shilpa.

CT: I have recipe-tested this to the T.

SU: Yes.

CT: Jesse's like, "Don't touch the salt. Do not touch the salt."

SU: It's really actually inspiring. I know that's very cliche to say, but it's really lovely to hear you. What is your first baking memory?

CT: Oh, that's such a good question. My first baking memory because I am a really selfish sweet tooth is an eating memory as much as it is a baking memory. And it is my mom's mom, my grandma, country grandma, like cornfields, livestock, cattle farm in Ohio. Her cookie that she would always make was an oatmeal cookie. It's a slightly wetter dough. There's two eggs in it for two sticks of butter, so it's a slightly wetter dough, a little less flour, and a lot of whole rolled oats because her self-talk was like, they're cookies. Everyone needs cookies in life, but they're hardy, right? These farmers can really, they really got to line their stomachs with these hardy oats. And she would make giant batches of them during harvest season and the dough itself is like knockout delicious, but the other fun, she'd make them in big batches, refrigerate the dough because it was more wet and sticky to deal with.

Scoop it after it was done refrigerating and then rolled it in confectioner sugar and baked them. And I both loved, of course, watching something being made out of nothing, but my memory of it, the love of watching it bake probably came second, because the second I got to lick the batter, lick the beater, as it were, as a kid, I was like, "This is what I want for breakfast, lunch, and dinner." But also, I was a little naughty. So when she wasn't looking, I'd go into her country refrigerator and just steal bites of cookie dough. And one day Shilpa, she was like, "We made enough cookies to make 60 cookies and there's only 50 cookies here. What's up?" And I'm also a terrible liar and she saw right through me.

So it was like the food memory that threw me into baking and she was like, "You're out of the kitchen. You're going to have to figure out how to do this on your own because no more stealing my cookie dough," kind of thing. But it still to this day is like the most nostalgic cookie for me. And she's since passed, but no oatmeal cookie will ever live up to that cookie because it's like person, place, time, scene, a little like grandma germs, but in a good way, right? Like that little je ne sais quoi of it. Best baking memory, favorite baking memory, and so true to just who I am and what I believe in.

JS: I want to try that. I'm like, I have an oatmeal-

SU: Krakow cookie.

JS: Damn, that's good.

SU: Yeah.

CT: Right. But like hilariously, she would never PR it that way, right? It was just an oatmeal cookie. What are you going to do? We've made it on Bake Club before. Again, it's like one of those things that has infinite possibility, flavor extensions, et cetera. And it's my first baking memory and my first real naughty cookie dough, eating the dough, stealing the dough, all the things that dessert moves me to do.

SU: And we have to talk about lemon bars, which is actually the point of our entire call, I suppose. Christina, do you have a favorite recipe to make with lemons?

CT: So the first recipe that came to mind is, my favorite thing to do is whatever I'm using lemons for, lemonade, cooking, whatever, is to save the half rinds that have no juice in them left, take them, pulse them down with sugar and cook them on the stove top to make almost like a candied lemon jam that has a lot of like bouncy tooth and then use that in recipes. So use that in... One of my favorite recipes to use for jam is called the puffin jam. We use puff pastry and jam, and you make these little sort of baked flowers that you bake that are filled with jam that sort of puff out like a flower.

But I love that jam because it's like my home recipe. It's great on ice cream. You can mix it into butter and make like a lemon butter. You can put poppy seeds in there and make a lemon poppy seed butter. It's great in cake. It's great as a layering cake. It's great in frosting, like this lemon jam, and it can be any citrus, but lemon is obviously the most beautiful and fragrant. You can make the most killer lemon cookies by just folding this lemon jam into. That's very like Bake Club. But you know what, Jess? You're going to kill me for this, but my lemon bar, like my nostalgic lemon bar recipe came from my other side of grandma's, and she always used lemon cake mix.

JS: Interesting.

CT: She never-

SU: Oh.

CT: Almost like the way you would a gooey butter cake-

JS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SU: Yeah.

CT: Where no real fresh lemons were harmed in the making-

JS: Sure.

CT: Of her lemon bars. And yet, of course, I thought they were like the classiest high-end-

JS: For sure.

CT: Lemon moment ever, where you mix some of the cake mix with butter and an egg to make the crust, and then you save the rest and mix it with confectioner sugar and, and, and, and, for the filling. But I had never had like a fresh, a lemon curd, a lemon bar energy until I was much, maybe even like New York City culinary school land, but I love a pucker up lemon moment. I think lemon can hold so much acid, and salt, and sugar, and heat, if you go in that direction where if I think about other fruits or fresh ingredients that you could put in a baked good, I don't know what other thing actually rivals a lemon, both in its nostalgia and its ability to like shape-shift into different personalities and flavor stories.

JS: That's a good point because other citrus can be a bit harsh when you kind of concentrate their pith and everything.

SU: That's true.

JS: But a lemon, you can tame it really well.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: We have a question.

JS: Yes. We have a question we thought you would be great to answer, and this is a question that I think seems simple but I think it's complicated, and this is actually from Christina in the club. So Christina from Christina.

SU: Oh.

JS: "Is a baking pan the same thing as a cake pan?"

CT: Ooh. Okay. First of all, Christina, great question because how would you know? You want to know the funny part about it? Is it's going to be based on like recipe developer, recipe writer, to recipe developer, recipe writer. I use the word cake pan to describe a round pan that has a bottom that's usually nine or 10 inches diameter. Sometimes they make them smaller, four, five, six. It has to be round. It has to be tall enough to bake a cake in, et cetera. That's the only time I use the word cake pan myself.

SU: Oh.

CT: But I use baking pan to describe a very general array of sizes and shapes, including a cake pan that I might bake something in. So I might use my cake pan to make like a deep dish pie in and I'd probably call it a baking pan at that point. I'd say it's a nine-inch cake pan, but when I start referring to it in the recipe, I call it a baking pan because I don't want to confuse you, but I would also use the word baking pan to refer to like a quarter sheet pan, an eight by eight pan, a nine by 13 pan, a spring form pan, like baking pan for me covers cake pan, but it also covers a wide array and a wide gamut.

So if you're like deep in reading someone's recipe and trying to figure it out, it shouldn't be that hard, but if you probably go back and read a few of their other recipes, you'll understand sort of how they like to use and describe the type of baking pans that you use. But in general, what I will say, Christina, is cake pan, baking pan or otherwise, you don't need super fancy stuff. You just need a pan that's like high quality stainless steel metal and it has an even width of its material on the sides and on the bottom so that you get a nice, even consistent bake. There shouldn't be any warping or otherwise, because if you do that, it means that the material's too thin. It's going to conduct way too much heat and sort of burn the bottom of whatever you're baking, cake, cookie, pie, or otherwise. But most pans, like if you have a nine-inch cake pan, you can usually bake most of those things in an eight by eight inch baking pan. It might be a little bit taller.

SU: You often get the question in Bake Club, because I think what makes our Bake Club interesting for us is both of us have like a restaurant background. We are developing these recipes with a great deal of precision and then we put it out in the world, and people are baking it with their own constraints.

CT: Yes.

SU: They might have a different pan, they might have-

CT: Totally.

SU: Different ingredients. Do you often come across questions in Bake Club that are substitution based? Like what pan should I use instead?

CT: Totally. All the time. I used to when I first started Bake Club, like almost write, not a whole novel, but well, I guess I would film all the recipes. So, as I was making things in real time, I had enough time where the mixer was mixing or the thing was baking in the oven where I could sort of do the like, okay, well also it was the pandemic, is when we started Bake Club, right? Let's say you don't have flour, what else can be flour? Or let's say you don't have a nine-inch cake pan, you can still bake this cake, right? Let's talk about what you might have and what to do with it.

I try to talk through that and then I try to write it in recipe because that's very helpful, or to just talk through that on the regular. But it's interesting Shilpa, because what I find now more than ever is folks don't necessarily... It's more of like an interactive community conversation than it is writing in the recipe or videoing because we don't want to read recipes that are that long these days. And we don't want to watch videos that are that long.

JS: It's a fine line. Yeah.

CT: But we do, yeah. But we do want answers because well, you want people to bake your recipe and you want them to feel really empowered and inspired. So it's a little bit like send me a message. If you have a question, I'm here. I want to help make your baking dreams come true. And there shouldn't be a limit in your kitchen to be able to bring this recipe to life. It's a labor of love, but-

SU: It is a labor of love.

CT: I'm here for it.

SU: I love it.

JS: Okay. Christina, for our last portion, we have some rapid fire questions if you're down.

CT: I'm ready.

JS: Okay. First question, what is your favorite box cake flavor?

CT: Funfetti, but I'm really into Cherry Chip right now.

JS: Cherry Chip.

SU: Oh.

CT: If you haven't had the Betty Crocker Cherry Chip-

JS: Is it pink?

CT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JS: Ooh.

SU: Oh, wow.

CT: It's pink.

JS: I'm going to look for this now.

CT: Cherry Chip. It's not available everywhere, but you can find it.

JS: Sure, sure, sure.

SU: What kind of frosting do you put on top? Chocolate?

CT: This is what I'm working through. Is it a cherry cola frosting? Is it a chocolate frosting?

SU: Cherry cola, that sounds very good.

JS: That does sound good. Yeah.

CT: Is it vanilla? My brain still has all these ideas and I'm trying to figure it out.

SU: Yeah. Maybe it's an almond. Yeah.

CT: Maybe it's an almond.

SU: Yeah.

CT: Thank you.

JS: Like marzipan even.

CT: It's like the pit. Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: What is your favorite breakfast cereal?

CT: Okay. Can I tell you what I've been... I mean, Golden Grahams-

JS: It's good.

CT: Captain Crunch, Honey Bunches of Oats. I'm a mixer these days, but what I've done recently, because I have a three-year-old and a five-year-old, is we almost always have Rice Krispies and some sort of Chex in the house because one of them likes one and one of them likes the other. But on Saturdays and Sundays, it's fancy cereal day. So instead of buying the Cinnamon Toast Crunch, which also, we bowed to you, I got a big bag of the Lucky Charms marshmallows.

JS: Oh. Yeah, yeah.

CT: And so I take their normal weekday cereal and I make it fancy by adding marshmallows to it, because at the end of the day, they really just-

JS: Sure. Sure.

CT: Wanted Lucky Charms. I am in my own cereal era of like, now I just want to make my own line of cereal, which won't really happen-

SU: Oh, my God. Yes.

CT: But you guys know this is just like what I'm doing in my free time at like 6AM on a Saturday morning.

SU: Wait.

JS: I'm like, if you need business partners, we're here. Do you have a motto or words that you live by in the kitchen?

CT: My motto actually comes from coming up in restaurant world. It's never get off the line. It's keep going, right? It's like no matter... You're going to drop something, you're going to mess up, et cetera, et cetera. It's the like, you keep going.

JS: I like that.

CT: And when you put yourself in that infinite mindset, you'd be surprised. The hard stuff's still going to exist, but your perspective on it is just different, because inevitably anywhere you want to get in life is like one step at a time, one dish at a time, one pickup order at a time, one day at a time. That's how it stacks up. That's been the secret. Once you tell yourself that you're never going to get off the line, you're never going to walk off shift or whatever, the rest of it is somehow mentally much easier.

SU: Wow. I didn't know I was going to have a motivational-

JS: I know.

SU: Speech during this Bake Club.

JS: I feel therapized.

SU: I love it. And for your very last question, what is the best compliment you've ever received on a bake?

CT: I think the best compliment, honestly, is no words at all. It's a clean plate, right?

SU: Aw.

CT: It's clean plate. Maybe at the most it's like the audible sound of someone licking the plate, or licking their fingers, or making the mm noise, right? I think that's always the highest form of a compliment because it means that what you made was so delicious, resistance was futile. It did the thing and that the person is just so joyfully happy. They're just, you found that moment, that zen moment in them.

SU: Thank you. Christina-

CT: Thank you so much.

SU: I know everyone knows you, but I would still like you, in your own words, to tell people where we can find you on the internet.

CT: Oh my gosh. You can find me at milkbarstore.com or @Christinatosi on the socials or at bakeclub.com.

JS: Yes.

CT: Would love to bake along.

JS: Join two bake clubs. More bake clubs, the better.

SU: Yes.

JS: Yes.

CT: We all need more clubs in our life.

JS: I agree.

SU: That's it for this month's edition of BA Bake Club. Jesse, do you want to tell bakers about our June Bake Club recipe?

JS: Yes. And jump in, Shilpa, because it's not me.

SU: Yeah.

JS: It's not you.

SU: It's neither of us.

JS: It is our first guest. It is our coworker, Rebecca Firkser. And she is the queen of galettes.

SU: Yes, Rebecca's-

JS: She has a cookbook called Galette!.

SU: Galette!.

JS: And she made-

SU: Galettes.

JS: Galettes. She made tiny tomato galettes, which are just these adorable, I don't know, like four bite galettes.

SU: Yeah. They're so cute.

JS: It's like one slice of tomato, just enough crust. This savory, cheesy spread underneath. They're really cute.

SU: They're like an individual galette. I feel like it's a galette that a rat would have at a tea party.

JS: Oh.

SU: Do you know? But a cute rat.

JS: A very classy rat.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yes. And that's not the pizza rat.

SU: No.

JS: The galette rat. Okay. And I mean, usually I'd ask you any special equipment, but I can speak for about... Well, first of all, Rebecca's going to be here next month.

SU: Yes.

JS: Yeah, so-

SU: Rebecca's going to be here next month.

JS: We're not shutting her out.

SU: Yes. Yes. Rebecca's going to be here next month, guys. And any special equipment or ingredients?

JS: No.

SU: I think, no. You-

JS: No.

SU: A nice tomato.

JS: Yeah. I'd say stock up on nice tomatoes, but maybe do that last minute.

SU: Yes.

JS: Yes. Yes.

SU: Nice, juicy, fat, heirloom, or slicer tomato. Great. Well, Bake Clubbers, once you bake through the galette, send us your pictures and questions. There are so many different ways that you can get in touch with us.

JS: And Rebecca will be on the line this month too answering so you can comment on the recipe on the Epicurious app or the Bon Appetit website. You can comment on our Substack where Rebecca will be, or email us at [email protected]. And if you've made it and loved it, you can rate and review the recipe on our site. We're your host, Jesse Szewczyk.

SU: And Shilpa Uskokovic.

JS: Our producer is Emily Elias and we had editing by Michele O'Brien.

SU: Pran Bandi is our studio engineer.

JS: Research editing by Ryan Harrington and Marisa Malanga.

SU: This episode was mixed by Amar Lal at Macro Sound.

JS: If you'd like this show, you could leave us a rating and review and hit that follow button so you never miss an episode.

SU: And if you're not already part of a club, head to bonappetit.com/bakeclub to find all the information you need to join.

JS: Thanks for listening to BA Bake Club, and we'll see you next month.